New Company: Managing a Wide Variety of Feedstocks

[Jackie Seaman]

Hi everyone. Myself and a business partner are planning on starting an alcohol fuel company based upon Mr. Blume's book. It will be a community based waste-recycling type process using feedstocks such as produce from the local grocery store and food waste from restaurants. I am a soon-to-be mechanical engineer (graduating in December), so I understand the plant process, but I am curious about feedstock management. We want to use a wide variety of feedstocks, but I am concerned about the inefficiencies associated with managing so many. Mr. Blume makes brief mention of waste products in his book, but so far I have not found anything in depth.

We apologize for the generic nature of this request, but the development of our company is still in its infantile stages and we just want a direction. Any advice, information, or references to experiences in managing alot of feedstocks would greatly help us out. Thank you for your time.

[Bill]

I'll give you a couple of thoughts I've had on this. Waste products that are high in sugar or do not need to be filtered are the easiest to handle, for example, waste soda pop, hard candy, waste beer from a bar or microbrewery. You might even want a separate line for these because you don't have to worry about clogging up the still with these materials unless you set up a fine filtration before the still. Different types of packing in the column are easier to clean than others. Glass marbles or glass beads are easier to clean than stainless steel turnings or pot scrubbers. When you have a variety of feedstocks you must worry about any potential cross contamination issues between batches. I'm not sure what these would be.

Here are some random issues:

- Starch containing feedstocks may need a separate line.

- I'm working on 5 gallon batches to get used to a variety of feedstocks. Then I'll start with 50 gallon batches.

- In the past year oil prices have gone from $147/barrel to $30 to $70. These kinds of variations are likely to continue for some time and wreck havoc with the price you can receive for your fuel which makes business planning difficult. If you are borrowing money for this project you may find yourself with a cash flow problem at a very inconvenient time. That's I'm staying small and trying to use cast off equipment as much as possible.

That's all can think of for now.

[Jackie Seaman]

Thanks for the advice. We are planning to get waste products such as the ones you listed from local restaurants and such. The cross contamination is something I hadn't considered yet so thanks for bringing that to light. We are planning to begin with a small micro-still to master the feedstock diversity as well. Good to hear someone else is working on it. Thanks again.

[Jackie Seaman]

Oh I meant to ask. We have an investor and we were thinking if we have the money we would like to go ahead and use Pall rings for the packing. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Bill]

I don't know much about Pall rings. I think they may be suitable for columns 4 inches to 6 inches in diameter. Stainless steel turnings are much cheaper and more effective (lower height of equivalent theoretical plates.) The copper mesh that Erik mentions is worth considering.

http://acbagnetwork.ning.com/forum/topics/copper-mesh-packing-how-much

I am looking at this boiler.

http://store.allardresearch.com/sgetstge.html
http://www.allardresearch.com/EB120Manual.pdf

It requires that the beer fed into it be finely filtered and I want to resolve that issue before committing to it. If I have to filter the beer for the boiler anyway, then I don't need to worry about clogging up the packing in the column.

[Erik Weaver]

Pall rings are fine. Copper mesh even better. Personally, I'd not worry about cleaning issues for two reasons:

1) If particles are getting up into your mesh packing, you have a design problem with the boiler / column interface. Fix it. Only vapor should rise into the column, not solids.

2) Given time, I suppose it is possible little tiny bits of 'stuff' may still get into the packing. And certainly a boil-over or other mistake could do so. Fortunately, the copper mesh is easy to pull out ( after is has cooled ) and just hose it down with a sprayer. Should do the trick. Then roll the mesh back up and restuff the column. ( Naturally, the column should b designed to avoid this problem, and also to grant easy access in the event the first plan fails. )

My favorite web site: http://www.amphora-society.com/

They sell the copper mesh. They also sell the best books I've read on distillers ( start with "The Compleat Distiller" and then read "Making Pure Corn Whiskey" ) so they are a "must read" if you haven't already.

[Erik Weaver]

For starters, wen you feel over-whelmed, remember Hillbillies have been making moonshine out in the back woods with little to no "technology" other than fire, water, and some copper coils! This means you can successfully distill alcohol fuel, because it isn't any more difficult ( unless you're gunning for 200-proof, which does add a couple steps )

Next, plan on heating your food stocks to the point of killing bacteria. That is the single biggest problem area I see. So cook the little bugs dead! Problem solveded! ;P

And the single most important piece of advice....

CASH-FLOW the business! This is the only way the wild fluctuations in oil prices will not end up putting you out of business. Murphy loves this business! The only way to keep him at bay is to have zero debt. There will be sufficient challenges along the way without playing Financial Russian Roulette!

[Erik Weaver]

As to particulars.... there are not any. Each area is very different. You need to track down the businesses within 20 or 30 miles of your location, or find a site placing in the midst of as many suppliers of your seed stock, within that range, as possible. Transportation costs are high. They only way to drastically lower them is to keep the distance low.

.....OK, that isn't true.... buying in volume helps too! Trainloads if you can afford it, and deal with their slow time tables. That also means finding a place with existing tracks -- I doubt you want to build a train line! But I think it is more practical to assume you'll be getting your supplies by truckload. You may even need to start out hauling a trailer around behind your pick up, but you'll find better prices at truckload volume. That's in the ballpark of 40,000 to 46,000 pounds of shipped commodity ( it varies somewhat in that range, but that'll give you a very good estimate )

This also means you have to accommodate trucks at your facility. This also means you need to know what kind of trucks are going to be rolling in. Grain trucks often dump their load through the floor, 46,000 lbs per dump. Tankers generally pump via a hose. Dry vans need a dock to which the trailer may be backed into and unloaded via fork-truck.

Make sure the trucks can maneuver in your planned facility. Trailers are usually 53-feet long these days. If you are using an old facility it may have been built back when no trucks were longer than 40 to 48-feet. That's a big difference if you are the driver trying to blind-side back, jack-knifed, in some tiny dark alley!

Obviously, you should lay out the lines to accommodate your input/processing/output needs. Saved steps, like penny's, add up! But I assume you have been trained in that analysis already.

That's something to get you started.

Did you say where you are located? How is the food processing industries in your area? Corn syrup is good to be around, as is any kind of alcohol. Doughnuts and bread are good too.

I think I'd consider finding 2 or 3 potential food source suppliers. That way if one or even two go belly up, you still have one source to utilize whilst you find an alternate for that missing supplier. Having only a single food source is asking for trouble. But so is trying to accommodate 153 input sources. Maybe you could build up to that, but I'd not intend to start there! "KISS" comes to mind! hehehe

[Jackie Seaman]

Great comments. They are much appreciated, especially the practical knowledge. I have quite a bit of process theory from engineering but the practical know-how is something I am still working on. I have a list of responses to some of the things you mentioned.

1) Regarding the copper mesh, it sounds like a pretty good idea but copper's susceptibility to oxidization and corrosion is something that concerns me and I wonder if a longer term investment of plastic packing material might be wiser.

2) Just for the record, we are doing this in the southeast Texas area, although there is a lot of oil company influence in the area so we are trying to be careful and thorough.

3) I am curious if you have any data on average temperature and time duration required to cleanse the bacteria in the cooking step you mentioned. It may be in the book, but it is so full of good information it's a challenge to retain it all lol.

4) Regarding the debt issue, we are negotiating with an investor and alternative energy grants to start the business rather than small business loans, if we can help it that is.

5) Our travel zone to obtain feedstocks is relatively small in theory. We are intending to service a small community using primarily wastes from places such as the grocery stores and local restaurants. The community is not more than 5 miles in diameter so I don't see travel expenses being an issue. The one exception would be if the variety of places we have to go ends up making us travel around alot more in the small area than we think we will have to. I will take your advice and research food processors in the area, although at this time I am not aware of any major producers.

6) Quite a bit of alcohol is sold in the area (for drinking). There aren't many bars unfortunately, but I assume that plenty of alcohol is going to waste most likely. We are considering getting the fuel Co-Op members involved in an alcohol recycling program eventually. Any thoughts on that one?

7) We are planning for feedstock diversity but I am concerned about managing so many. We will probably start small with around 4-8 feedstocks.

8) Lastly, regarding the Cash-flow. Right now I am constructing a process flowchart of our operations and intend to use it to do an economic analysis to balance the cash-flow. However, we are also wanting to include co-products. We are researching co-product markets in order to insulate our business from the volatility of the auto fuel market.

Once again thanks for the advice. This discussion is enlightening.

[Erik Weaver]

1) Regarding the copper mesh, it sounds like a pretty good idea but copper's susceptibility to oxidization and corrosion is something that concerns me

I'd not worry about it. Many whiskey producers use copper-only stills. It removes some of the suffer (not a big deal for fuel) and lasts for many, many years.



3) I am curious if you have any data on average temperature and time duration required to cleanse the bacteria in the cooking step you mentioned.

Whatever it takes to kill those nasty bugs! Pasteurization will kill most of them (as with milk), and it seems like that is something like 140-180*F for only an hour or so. But my memory is also quite poor! Do NOT take my word on that, look it up again. I know David Blume talked about these kinds of concerns in his tome, "Alcohol Can Be A Gas" (website of the same name .com: http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/)

A quick call to the local USDA or health/food inspectors office may supply your answers. I'm sure they have official guidelines, and if you have any business in the area that need to perform these operations the local field agents may be familiar with those guidelines off the top of their heads. It'll only take a couple calls to find out. Failing that, call one of the Ag-Universities extension offices. I'm sure you have them in Texas!

Also, many recipes I've seen talk about this step. Be-it wine, beer, whiskey, or ethanol fuel. That step is pretty much the same for all of them. I don't know about the wine side of it, but the process is the same for beer, whiskey, and ethanol fuel, during the early prepping stages. Both whiskey and ethanol fuel come from beer. It is a matter of how you "finish" the process that makes the end-product differ in each case. So this means you can pick up a lot of ideas by reading in those areas of interest too.

4) Regarding the debt issue, we are negotiating with an investor and alternative energy grants to start the business rather than small business loans, if we can help it that is.

Well, I already said it, but it bears repeating: in my opinion, if you go into debt to do this, you will also go into bankruptcy. Grants are great! But no loans. No debt obligations.

Now if someone was willing to invest in the idea and take their return *after* *operating* costs (off the "after tax net" vs. the "gross") you may have something to talk about. More of a profit-sharing approach, really. They get their money back first, but not at the expense of keeping the lights on, or paying the guys running the place.

But get it in writing and be extremely careful, which is why we have attorneys. Get your Gentlemen's Agreement worked out and then get the attorney to put in into legal form. A good attorney will also point out all kinds of things you may not otherwise think about..... what happens if.... types of scenarios: marriage, death, divorce, dissolution, bankruptcy, etc, etc. (Mostly all bad things that have happened to others at one time or another.)


5) Our travel zone to obtain feedstocks is relatively small in theory. We are intending to service a small community using primarily wastes from places such as the grocery stores and local restaurants. The community is not more than 5 miles in diameter so I don't see travel expenses being an issue. The one exception would be if the variety of places we have to go ends up making us travel around alot more in the small area than we think we will have to. I will take your advice and research food processors in the area, although at this time I am not aware of any major producers.

OK. "Small" is relative. If they can supply more than you need to run that shop, then that is big enough! ;)

Also, you have grain trading in Texas, and feedlots, so you may at some point consider the idea of taking in raw grain (corn, or whatever the cows are eating) and stripping out the starch --which they cannot digest anyway-- and selling them "Distillers Grain." This may be either wet or dry. Depending, surprise surprise upon whether or not you dry it before selling it! ;) heheh ....Just something to think about for down the road. I live in Missouri and it is one of the things I have on my mind, although I'm not ready to tackle that beast yet.

I'd find out what all the local business you intend to approach are already doing with the wastes you are interested in utilizing. A really great deal --although unlikely-- would be someone already picks up their "food trash" and it is separate from tin cans and broken knives. Then you might be able to have them deliver the "trash" to you instead of the landfill! That'd be sweet! :D

Back in the real world, I'd try to get some idea of the volume of waste, the change of volume and types by season, how often they require pick-up service, and if they are currently paying to have this specific trash hauled away.

Once I thought I had an idea of what was available, I'd ask about getting a representative sample periodically for a reasonable period of time. I'd use that to work out my line processing details. Nothing better than working with the real trash! :)

But if these businesses are receptive to changing their waste disposal methods, I think you'll have something you'll be able to work with. And if they also buy into the idea that getting off Arab Oil and onto American Fuel is a good plan, then so much the better! It is, after all, a noble goal. I'd like to think there are still business owners and managers that can see this and who really want to work within America whenever possible. (Same goes for our those of you in other countries -- find business people in your country that believe energy independence is a noble goal.) That will make the bumps along the way easier to cross.

I'd plan to supply them with a trash barrel (with your company name and contact upon it) and develop a pick up schedule. Once you know what kinds of trash containers the other businesses wish to work with, you can work out what kind of vehicle/manpower is needed to run it, and then you can work out the routes and days of the week for pickup. Size the equipment to the schedule.

It could be as simple as a pickup and trailer, or as complex as what would appear to be a normal trash service with to over-cab loading and the whole-9-yards.

Or you could rent a small "delivery" truck with a motorized lift-gate from a local truck rental outfit a couple times a week. If you have one of those. The town may be too small for that. I think they used to run about $100 a day to rent. You'd have to put a pen to it to see if that was cheaper than running your own truck. But personally, I like having my own equipment. It is a control issue to me. I'd use the rentals to ease me through "overage" times and during a period when I wasn't quite ready to add another vehicle.

Also, if it is your vehicle, it can be modified to run on ethanol! ;) Or biodiesel if it is a larger truck.


6) Quite a bit of alcohol is sold in the area (for drinking). There aren't many bars unfortunately, but I assume that plenty of alcohol is going to waste most likely. We are considering getting the fuel Co-Op members involved in an alcohol recycling program eventually. Any thoughts on that one?

I briefly, and unofficially, ran that idea up the flagpole with one of the lady's at the ATF/TTB. She wasn't aware of any reason businesses couldn't dispose of their waste alcohol to a fuel manufacturer. You'll need good records, but that is true in any case. So document every drop of the stuff, along with temperature, and all the related details you need to verify the true alcoholic content of what you are collecting.

Do you have any caterers that serve alcohol? Seems like weddings and the like produce a lot of waste alcohol. I've always wondered what it would take to convince them to pour the left-behind drinks (sugar-rich soda pop as well as alcohol!) into a separate roll-around drum.

Other than "it is good for the country" the practical reason I might consider it where I in their place: water is heavy! That has got to be rough on their trash bags, and I'd expect the really messy part in cleaning up. (Which may actually be the hotels worry -- so maybe they are the ones to speak with rather than the caterer.)

If the co-op members are going to do so as individuals, all they really need is a bucket/drum of suitable size fitted with a drain spout to make collections fast and simple. Depending upon what they produce it may be worth dealing with it. But how often do people at home fail to drink all of their beer or pop? Hardly ever in my case.

I really like the idea, but I'm still not convinced the details actually are practical in the real world. It'll be interesting to see what others think!

I like the flow of ideas! Keep 'em coming!

[Bill]

As far as copper mesh is concerned, I can tell you that corrosion and oxidation with copper is not a serious problem. That's why they make pipe out of copper. How often have you ever heard of someone's copper pipes corroding away? I had an old house once with a water heater that was 50 years old. It lasted that long because it had a copper tank unlike the water heaters they make now which will rarely last 10 years.

I know my chemistry on this, the only corrosion problem you may with copper is is with a strong acid, say, a pH around 3. You'll never get a pH that high, it would kill the yeast.

Don't dismiss copper because of corrosion concerns.

[Jackie Seaman]

You have a point. Alright, sounds good I'll look into the copper mesh, thanks.

[Bill]

I think the mesh on the site below is the same as you can buy from the still manufacturers.

http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/SPEC/pick-stuffit.htm

I didn't know you could stuff rat holes with copper mesh!