how to satisfy the wife w/a plan?

[Gerald Watts]

My darling wife has to know that I will be able to produce an income with an alcohol based farming system. She needs a business plan, some evidence that I can sell the produce and for a profit, especially in this current economy. I should need it too but tend to run off half cocked. It WOULD be a shame to invest in a still, other equipment and feed stocks only to loose the whole bloody farm because I can't make it pay.

I'm thinking of buying a load of corn for the first run this summer if I can get it together by then. Perhaps it would make better sense, cash flow wise, to grow the first feed crop but that would mean spreading the stillage on the fields; probably not wise to initiate fish ponds in winter.

Getting it together means fixing some rooves, fixing a grain conveyance system, setting up fermintation tanks and a still. What are the chances I could beg, borrow, steal or just get some co-operation from some of you guys? I know some of you are close to Bellingham. I'm afraid this will just turn out to be a pipe dream if I have to do it all alone as it's doubtful I can get it all together this year. Wildman says I can get 55 gallon barrels for free but not sure I'm excited to handle tons of material in barrels. Would be much better to have 500 gallon or bigger tanks.

I want to plant a couple acres of fodder beets for next fall & work on establishing catails in a couple acres of swampy ground for next year. I have a couple pit silos that I would like to raise fish and/or algae in. One silo, I'm guessing, is 20 x 50 ft the other 30 by 50 ft, both 6 ft deep. Hoping that I can just inflate a dome over them without having to erect a structure until I get up some cash flow.

I'm hoping I can get some used grain tanks from failed area farms for little or nothing. Use these to store corn initially and burry in the ground for mushroom caves later.

I'm hoping I can convert my 1000 gallon refrigerated milk tank into a mash tank for fermintation and distilling using the refrigeration system to keep it cool and to heat it as well, provided I can get it all up and running again, it's been 18 years and all the refrigerant it gone. I do know how to work on refrigeration however having trained and worked as a refer man many years ago but as it was an R12 system it will have to be converted to R134... or I could cheat and use propane as a refrigerant, a somewhat scarry thought but it works! Optionally it would be easy to just run oil or water through the coils.

I have plenty of room provided I move some cars. There's 17-18 acres that could produce feed stock of some kind or other but back to where I started, I've never been able to sell sqwat.

All that is academic if I can't sell my wife. How am I supposed to test the market in my area for what I/we can produce in my area and how am I suposed to formulate a business plan? I assume that means establishing costs for all the hardware and raw materials. I don't know where to start, except maybe for corn which is 350'6 on the CBOT this weekend, whatever that means, I've been trying to figure it out for quite a while.

Feel free to call me! Daily 8-3 at 360-738-9835 ext.304 Weekends, or Mond, Thurs & Friday evenings, 360 398-2198

Thanks, hoping for some help,
Jerry Watts

[Ron Fisher]

Hello Jerry

Well, If I could tell you how to get your wife to do anything I would be very wealthy because I could sell that info for real $!

It sounds like you have some good ideas and some of the stuff you need already but your dilemma is very typical...

I would ask if you have the book Alcohol Can Be a Gas?

This book has some good detail on many of the items you spoke of including the business model stuff...

I have found my wifes objections to be in the end good balance for my enthusiasm for the project although it can be frustrating at times (don't tell her I said that!) Having said that I think the issues for Wives are the Money, and the time you will have to invest into it...many wives may already feel they don't get enough of our time or that we are not spending time on what they fell we should and are not excited about us getting married to a big project...

I have just been proceeding with building a test plant as I can get out of pocket funds for the items needed...It has been more expensive than I expected and taken much longer than I hoped however I have given up on setting time related deadlines for my project...My wife has been less than enthused however has not left me over it...I just plan to do it regardless of how long it takes...I have been at it for years already as I did not start out with anything I needed and my first step was moving to a location where I could proceed without government interference...I found places like that to be hard to come by in Washington State...My father was involved in this with me at first and he lived in your area...he found everything he did became a struggle and decided to relocate the project to eastern Washington to escape the regulations and obstructions he experienced in that area...We purchased a place in Adams County and found the local government folks here very friendly to our project so far...he has since passed away however I am still moving forward with the project...

It sounds like you are already in an Ag Zoned location so you may not run up against as much difficulty as he did...I will say your location could be a big advantage for selling the ag products since there is a lot of interest in organic products up there...

I would suggest building a small test plant to demonstrate the process to yourself, your wife and learn from...once you have done it on a small scale you could work toward scaling up...buying biomass like corn to process will run your costs up quite a bit but corn does produce some good byproducts you could sell...selling ag products is something I have no experience in yet however plan to try many of the ideas in the ACBAG book on a small scale to see what happens then go from there...I too am no salesman so have many of the same concerns as you...I would like to attend one of the current programs Dave Blume is doing as it is supposed to be detailed on many of your questions...

Although I am just now getting to the point where I have most of what I need for my test plant I still have some major costs to scale up to any production that would support a commercial venture...

I would be glad to share anything I learn or know with you as I move forward as I feel networking with other producers will be important for all of us...

My project is focused on cattail based production however I will process anything I can get my hands on...

I will tell you that I would have started smaller if I had it to do over...I feel a good demonstration plant is a valuable tool to getting others involved and refining your needs...This project is hard to do on a shoestring budget and getting others involved is important if you don't have deep pockets and manpower already...with no working plant getting anyone involved is very hard...no ones wife wants to put money into a crazy idea the old man came up with or wants to get involved in...no one who I have managed to get involved with my project has had the commitment to invest any time or money into it...most folks want something easy for cheap...this type of project is not easy or cheap on any kind of scale...it will eat up your time and money during the development phase of the project...

My plant is starting to come together but is not finished...I have a 4" still, 500gal boiler almost done...500gallon fermentation tank, 500gallon fuel storage tank and am looking for a mix tank to cook in at this time...once I have the boiler finished I can apply for my permit and get started with testing...

Let me know if you have been reading the book ACBAG...I would like to talk with you about your project and goals most of the folks I have met in person have never made it to any kind of production or related ag project phase...

Good luck on your project!

[Gerald Watts]

Geez, are we married to the same woman? I do have the ACBAG. My first reaction to it was "long on theory short an practical" however as I've gotten past the middle of the book and have done a little more of my own research I've come to regard it more like a bible! I am in ag40 zoning with a 30 acre place, lots of buildings in poor condition. My wife started working a bit less than a year ago which has relieved our financial stress somewhat and given me the bug to get busy fixing stuff up. An alcohol based production cycle using all the by products is somewhat unique in that it actually holds some promise of real profit compared to just farming which is scarcely worth doing; it's made me want to get the farm back to producing.

I am in kind of reasonably good position to implement a well rounded operation with resources like the milk tank, silos and open fields, if only my buildings were still good. It's hard to take it slow knowing the value that I can put out but sounds like I'd be better off to work Craigslist and EchoAds in an effort to gather materials, opinions. Think I'll call SCORE. Not sure what to tell them but I know they can offer reasonably good business advise, I've used them before. They'll either have a good laugh or actually give me some direction.

What is your reason for waiting to get the permit?

[Ron Fisher]

>What is your reason for waiting to get the permit?

The Treasury Dept part of BATF (otherwise known as "revenuers") issues the permit and regulates the production of ethanol for any use...They will not issue your permit until you have a functioning still with a boiler that is operational...

They also said they want your set up to be done and ready to use including any fire control systems and security measures so they can inspect it if they so choose...My first application was rejected when I told them during the phone interview that my plant was not operational...they told me to try again after I finished building my set up...this caused my partner/investor to pull out because he did not want to put money into an ethanol plant before he were sure we would get the permit...

The Treasury agent I spoke to said many applications never come back after they tell them they have to build the still and boiler first...they also want it in a locked building with an alarm system...I know this from the interview not from any info I could find before I turned in my application...they do not say this anywhere in their information you just find out when you turn in your paperwork and they call back and ask you if you have built your still yet and a list of other questions about your setup, location and knowledge of the process...however I do see other folks who do not have theirs in a building or protected by any alarm system so I am not sure how they got around that or if things are just changing due to all the interest caused by high gas prices...

This issue can also be a difficult issue with the wives...mine is not very impressed about spending money when I can not ensure we will receive a permit...she is also concerned that we will get in trouble for having a still and no permit...however this is the way you have to do it if you want a permit now...they also ask you questions about the process of making ethanol to see if you know how...

Another issue is the local governments...Fire departments are not very well informed about this and act like it is very dangerous...on your side of the mountain there have been some problems with fire marshals refusing to allow small plants to operate...In my location this was not an issue my local fire department does not see it any differently than storing fuel for farm use...also the county folks can be fairly difficult...especially if they don't find out about your plant till after your using it as my father found out the hard way in Whatcom County, they went nuts on him...in Adams county small plants do not require a permit in Ag Zoned areas at this time...however small plant is the key word here...if you move past the 10,000 proof gallons output the state will get nutty on you about waste water control, water treatment, and site development, environmental impact and on and on...also water supply becomes an issue...It looks to me like you can plan on it taking several years to get your plant permitted for a medium size production goal from what I see others going through...In Whatcom county if you have any waste water runoff from your project they will get crazy about it and so will the state...to move your plant to what BATF calls a medium size plant that can produce enough fuel to sell you will have to deal with about 16 different county, state and federal agencies if your in Whatcom county...it is a bit better over here but only at the county level the state still requires waste water control design and systems for your project to be approved before you will be allowed to do business...My investigation so far has shown that a medium size plant will take a serious amount of effort in the permitting and development phases and then of course later with the state tax records, weights and measures folks, all your equipment must be certified, inspected and approved by the state along with serious record keeping and insurance issues....if your just making fuel for yourself it may be fairly strait forward...but, when you try to move past that, everyone wants to control your every move so they can make sure you don't make a dime they cant get a share of...However Our Governor insists that Washington is promoting ethanol production projects...so far as I can tell they are only promoting large projects that exclude any small business efforts...I have not found any small ethanol producers opertating in our state that sell fuel so far...or even a currently operating ethanol production project of more than a few hundred gallons a year...if you know of one let me know as I would like to chat with them...

[Wild Man]

Hey Jerry,
Another source for tanks may be old fuel oil tanks from oil fired furnaces. They come in all kinds of sizes. I got four 500 gal tanks by listing a wanted ad in the Little Nickel Classifieds. I got them when I was going to put a bio-diesel project together. I've got a welder buddy who's going to help me cut them up for man way access for cleaning and such. Don't know how thats going to work out but I'll fill you in.

I'm also looking into some local feedstock options that might be free. Somebody in this group mentioned something about getting tons of bad spuds from the local produce market. Here in Mt. Vernon theres a good sized spud shed that might be a good resource. I get over that way often so I'll check that out and get back to you. There are a couple of other food processors in the area too that I'm looking at. I also have a couple of good grocery connections.
I guess I got lucky on the wife issue,,,she's the one pushing me to get this thing done. She was pretty cool (cold) on the bio-diesel idea, so when she got behind the ethanol deal I just said, "yes, dear"