Have you seen the "econo-wash" recipe for sugar based wash? It's at the alcohol fuel yahoo site. Going to give a scaled down version at test run at the same time I am testing the dextrose based wash. Will let you know results.
That's exactly why I am starting to learn the process with sugar- no variables and repeatable results.
Emailed Riku with a question, he responded and confirms that multiple small columns are the way to go for high output in a short time.
Erik,
finally was approved by Dawn Foods as cash customer to buy dextrose; will be picking up 150# of it on Fri AM and starting one batch of wash using yeast from Mile Hi that is supposed to create 23% ABV. Will let you know results.
Brian
Erik,
Have you had a chance to run any batches thru your PDA-1 yet?
Going to start a batch of wash made from dextrose+Liquor Quik Alcobase extreme 23% today from HileHi Distilling; will let you know how that goes.....
Weaver, you sparked off a good bit of comments. I am also an OTR O/O.
Liberterian also. I have land and am willing to try this. I found it useful to go in with a car mechanic. He is interested in doing conversions on engines. I have some Heating and Air experience and gardening that I find useful. I gues where I am at in the low country of SC I may go with cattails. I have a large pond on my site.
Let me know how you feel about their product after you have run a few batches through it. I am going to modify my still unassembled Charles 804 to have no coil in the lower section as Amphora suggests, and may even get crazy and route the top coil thru the top cap instead of thru the sides. Also planning on purchasing parts to assemble a second still along their guidelines and run them in parallel to increase output/reduce total time. Will let you know how things shape up.
I have thoroughly enjoyed their books "The Compleat Distiller" and "Designing and Building Automatic Stills." I highly recommend them both (I haven't read the other one yet).
I am strongly considering buying their PDA-1 with the extra column. About $500, but it seems to be a good value. Max output is said to be 3 liters (3/4 gallon) per hour after it reaches equilibrium and all is running properly.
I first thought we had a horrible exchange rate and their $25 book was going to cost me $40 USD. That was false. It cost me $25 (plus S&H).
They have also been responding to email and seem friendly, knowledgeable, and informative.
Erik,
If you haven't already done so, check out: http://www.amphora-society.com/ and click on the news button to see an impressive high volume ethanol still that they are developing; might help you on you road to a new career.
Brian
At 8:42am on September 23, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
MISSOURI ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE -- OPINION
http://ago.mo.gov/opinions/1979/132-79.htm
Opinion No. 132-79
Topics:
LIQUOR.
LICENSES.
Summary conclusion
Ethanol used solely as a fuel for motor vehicles is not an "intoxicating liquor" as defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. It is our further opinion that individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles are not required to be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo as long as the alcohol produced at the facility is denatured by some means.
Contents of opinion
July 18, 1979
Honorable James L. Russell
Representative
District 6
State Capitol Building
Room 400
Jefferson City, Missouri 65101
Dear Representative Russell:
This is in response to your request for an official opinion of this office concerning the following questions:
"Is ethanol which is used as fuel for motor vehicles an 'intoxicating liquor' under section 311.020, RSMo 1978?
"Must private individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land and solely for the purpose of providing fuel for their own motor vehicles be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo, specifically section 311.180, RSMo 1978?"
Pursuant to § 311.050 RSMo 1978, anyone who distills intoxicating liquor in Missouri must first obtain a license from the Supervisor of Liquor Control. This statute provides as follows:
"It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership or corporation to manufacture, sell or expose for sale in this state intoxicating liquor, as defined in section 311.020, in any quantity, without taking out a license."
The cost of this license will vary depending upon the alcoholic content of the liquor which is produced. Section 311.180, RSMo provides in part:
"Manufacturers, wholesalers, solicitors-license fees.-1. No person, partnership, association of persons or corporation shall manufacture, distill, blend, sell or offer for sale intoxicating liquor within this state at wholesale or retail, or solicit orders for the sale of intoxicating liquor within this state without procuring a license from the supervisor of liquor control authorizing them so to do. For such license there shall be paid to and collected by the director of revenue annual charges as follows:
"(2) For the privilege of manufacturing in this state intoxicating liquor containing not in excess of twenty-two percent of alcohol by weight the sum of one hundred dollars;
"(3) For the privilege of manufacturing, distilling or blending intoxicating liquor of all kinds within this state the sum of two hundred dollars;
"2. Provided further, however, that solicitors, manufacturers and blenders of intoxicating liquor shall not be required to take out a merchant's license for the sale of their products at the place of manufacture or in quantities of not less than one gallon."
"Intoxicating liquor" as used in Chapter 311 is defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. This statute provides:
"The term 'intoxicating liquor' as used in this chapter, shall mean and include alcohol for beverage purposes, alcoholic, spirituous, vinous, fermented, malt, or other liquors, or combination of liquors, a part of which is spirituous, vinous or fermented, and all preparations or mixtures for beverage purposes, containing in excess of three and two-tenths percent of alcohol by weight."
If alcohol is distilled solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles, then such alcohol is not being used for "beverage purposes" and therefore would not be considered "intoxicating liquor" as used in Chapter 311, RSMo 1978. A similar conclusion was reached by this office in Op. Atty. Gen. No. 37, Mueller, 1-17-79 concerning the application of the State liquor laws to wines used solely for sacramental purposes.
We note, however, that the alcohol which is obtained directly from the distillation process is capable of being used not only for experimental fuel purposes, but also for consumption as a beverage. For this reason, the Division of Liquor Control requires that all individuals who distill alcohol for such experiments denature the alcohol as soon as it emerges from the distillation process. One means of denaturing this product is by the addition of gasoline. If the alcohol is rendered unfit for human consumption by some means such as this, the Division of Liquor Control does not require any type of license for such experiments. Should the alcohol not be denatured by some means, the Division of Liquor Control requires that the individual comply with the provisions of section 311.180 supra.
A similar approach to this subject has been taken by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In ATF Release P 5000.1, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms allows for the experimental use of alcohol as a fuel product only at the plant premises where the alcohol is produced. Any alcohol removed from the premises must be tax-paid at the rate of $10.50 per proof gallon. If the alcohol is denatured prior to its removal from the plant premises, no federal excise tax will be assessed.
CONCLUSION
Therefore, it is the opinion of this office that ethanol used solely as a fuel for motor vehicles is not an "intoxicating liquor" as defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. It is our further opinion that individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles are not required to be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo as long as the alcohol produced at the facility is denatured by some means.
Very truly yours,
John Ashcroft
Attorney General
At 8:31am on September 23, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
MISSOURI -- Copy of Federal Permit must be filed with the state of MO.
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 142
Motor Fuel Tax
Section 142.015
August 28, 2007
Limited alcohol manufacturer, federal permit to be filed, where.
142.015. Every limited alcohol manufacturer shall file a copy of his federal permit for the manufacturer of alcohol with the director of the Missouri department of revenue.
(L. 1981 H.B. 462)
At 8:07am on September 23, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
MO Fuel Taxes:
http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/faq/fuel.htm#q9
What is the Missouri tax rate on motor fuel?
Missouri’s fuel tax rate is 17 cents a gallon for all motor fuel, including gasoline, diesel, kerosene, gasohol, ethanol blended with gasoline, biodiesel (B100) blended with clear diesel fuel, etc. The tax does not apply to dyed diesel fuel or dyed kerosene, which is dyed in accordance with the IRS guidelines. Missouri also collects two fees on all sales of fuel. The fees collected are the agriculture inspection fee in the amount of 2.5 cents per 50 gallons (.0005 per gallon) and the transport load fee in the amount of $40.00 per 8,000 gallons (.005 per gallon). This makes the total tax and fees collected 17.55 cents per gallon.
At 7:29am on September 23, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
LAWS, PERMITS, ETC
Missouri If you do NOT sell your ethanol, there are no state-level permitting requirements. If you DO SELL your ethanol then the MO Dept of Agriculture needs to be contacted. They are the state agency responsible for weights and measures, and they are responsible for ensuring minimal fuel standards in the state of MO.
Mr. Weaver,
The Missouri Department of Agriculture fuel quality program is
responsible for insuring that all fuel sold in the state of Missouri
meets minimum quality standards.
The fuel quality program does not issue permits for ethanol production. Additionally, since you're not planning to offer this product for sale, we will not need to test it.
You may want to contact the Missouri Department of Natural Resources to insure you'll comply with any environmental regulations:
http://www.dnr.mo.gov/ethanol/
and the Missouri Department of Revenue to insure you're in compliance with tax regulations:
http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/fuel/.
If you have questions feel free to contact me.
Regards,
Kevin Upschulte
Missouri Department of Agriculture
Fuel Quality Program
PO Box 630
Jefferson City, MO 65102
Voice: 573-751-2922
Fax: 573-751-8307
Webpage: www.mda.mo.gov
At 7:22am on September 23, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
Another good book. This one is very basic but it does clearly show and describe both how this guy built his own still and the steps to preparing his brew. There are no deep and dark secrets here, but there are very few thorough descriptions of how to build and then operate your still. This is one of those source, and for the low price I am happy to have it.
When he wrote the book it turns out he lived only a few miles from my house! heheh. I bought my book from Amazon.com:
"The Secrets of Building an Alcohol Producing Still" by Vincent R. Gingery.
At 9:32pm on September 16, 2008, Erik Weaver said…
"The Free Alcohol Fuel Compendium" (Vol. 2) -- don't bother with this one. It's somewhat interesting but offers nothing practical. The Vol. 1 was quite good. That *is* worth buying.
I have not yet finished this booklet --maybe 100 to 120 pages?-- but it seems quite good so far. They also have a "Vol. 2" to the compendium which I have ordered.
Will report more later.
The web site, well, it sucks. Don't let that be your only judge.
I have thumbed through their booklet "Sunshine to Dollars" which also came with "Surviving the Blackout of 2003" which I either forgot about or didn't know they were bundled. In any event I found it interesting because the author is a ham radio operator, as am I, and we have both been CERT and ARES members. The "Sunshine" part looks interesting, if amateurish. Together they are only about 50 or 60 pages I'd guess. These are a little better quality than you'll get printing the PDFs for yourself, and that is their intent, so they achieved their stated goals.
So far I have found Knowledge Publications to be as advertised, and they have sent me what I ordered, and they did so quickly. As long as you don't expect a more expensive binding, and you understand these booklets are comprised of Internet guru materials I think you'll be satisfied.
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Emailed Riku with a question, he responded and confirms that multiple small columns are the way to go for high output in a short time.
finally was approved by Dawn Foods as cash customer to buy dextrose; will be picking up 150# of it on Fri AM and starting one batch of wash using yeast from Mile Hi that is supposed to create 23% ABV. Will let you know results.
Brian
Have you had a chance to run any batches thru your PDA-1 yet?
Going to start a batch of wash made from dextrose+Liquor Quik Alcobase extreme 23% today from HileHi Distilling; will let you know how that goes.....
Liberterian also. I have land and am willing to try this. I found it useful to go in with a car mechanic. He is interested in doing conversions on engines. I have some Heating and Air experience and gardening that I find useful. I gues where I am at in the low country of SC I may go with cattails. I have a large pond on my site.
http://www.amphora-society.com/
I have thoroughly enjoyed their books "The Compleat Distiller" and "Designing and Building Automatic Stills." I highly recommend them both (I haven't read the other one yet).
I am strongly considering buying their PDA-1 with the extra column. About $500, but it seems to be a good value. Max output is said to be 3 liters (3/4 gallon) per hour after it reaches equilibrium and all is running properly.
I first thought we had a horrible exchange rate and their $25 book was going to cost me $40 USD. That was false. It cost me $25 (plus S&H).
They have also been responding to email and seem friendly, knowledgeable, and informative.
If you haven't already done so, check out: http://www.amphora-society.com/ and click on the news button to see an impressive high volume ethanol still that they are developing; might help you on you road to a new career.
Brian
http://ago.mo.gov/opinions/1979/132-79.htm
Opinion No. 132-79
Topics:
LIQUOR.
LICENSES.
Summary conclusion
Ethanol used solely as a fuel for motor vehicles is not an "intoxicating liquor" as defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. It is our further opinion that individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles are not required to be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo as long as the alcohol produced at the facility is denatured by some means.
Contents of opinion
July 18, 1979
Honorable James L. Russell
Representative
District 6
State Capitol Building
Room 400
Jefferson City, Missouri 65101
Dear Representative Russell:
This is in response to your request for an official opinion of this office concerning the following questions:
"Is ethanol which is used as fuel for motor vehicles an 'intoxicating liquor' under section 311.020, RSMo 1978?
"Must private individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land and solely for the purpose of providing fuel for their own motor vehicles be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo, specifically section 311.180, RSMo 1978?"
Pursuant to § 311.050 RSMo 1978, anyone who distills intoxicating liquor in Missouri must first obtain a license from the Supervisor of Liquor Control. This statute provides as follows:
"It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, partnership or corporation to manufacture, sell or expose for sale in this state intoxicating liquor, as defined in section 311.020, in any quantity, without taking out a license."
The cost of this license will vary depending upon the alcoholic content of the liquor which is produced. Section 311.180, RSMo provides in part:
"Manufacturers, wholesalers, solicitors-license fees.-1. No person, partnership, association of persons or corporation shall manufacture, distill, blend, sell or offer for sale intoxicating liquor within this state at wholesale or retail, or solicit orders for the sale of intoxicating liquor within this state without procuring a license from the supervisor of liquor control authorizing them so to do. For such license there shall be paid to and collected by the director of revenue annual charges as follows:
"(2) For the privilege of manufacturing in this state intoxicating liquor containing not in excess of twenty-two percent of alcohol by weight the sum of one hundred dollars;
"(3) For the privilege of manufacturing, distilling or blending intoxicating liquor of all kinds within this state the sum of two hundred dollars;
"2. Provided further, however, that solicitors, manufacturers and blenders of intoxicating liquor shall not be required to take out a merchant's license for the sale of their products at the place of manufacture or in quantities of not less than one gallon."
"Intoxicating liquor" as used in Chapter 311 is defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. This statute provides:
"The term 'intoxicating liquor' as used in this chapter, shall mean and include alcohol for beverage purposes, alcoholic, spirituous, vinous, fermented, malt, or other liquors, or combination of liquors, a part of which is spirituous, vinous or fermented, and all preparations or mixtures for beverage purposes, containing in excess of three and two-tenths percent of alcohol by weight."
If alcohol is distilled solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles, then such alcohol is not being used for "beverage purposes" and therefore would not be considered "intoxicating liquor" as used in Chapter 311, RSMo 1978. A similar conclusion was reached by this office in Op. Atty. Gen. No. 37, Mueller, 1-17-79 concerning the application of the State liquor laws to wines used solely for sacramental purposes.
We note, however, that the alcohol which is obtained directly from the distillation process is capable of being used not only for experimental fuel purposes, but also for consumption as a beverage. For this reason, the Division of Liquor Control requires that all individuals who distill alcohol for such experiments denature the alcohol as soon as it emerges from the distillation process. One means of denaturing this product is by the addition of gasoline. If the alcohol is rendered unfit for human consumption by some means such as this, the Division of Liquor Control does not require any type of license for such experiments. Should the alcohol not be denatured by some means, the Division of Liquor Control requires that the individual comply with the provisions of section 311.180 supra.
A similar approach to this subject has been taken by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In ATF Release P 5000.1, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms allows for the experimental use of alcohol as a fuel product only at the plant premises where the alcohol is produced. Any alcohol removed from the premises must be tax-paid at the rate of $10.50 per proof gallon. If the alcohol is denatured prior to its removal from the plant premises, no federal excise tax will be assessed.
CONCLUSION
Therefore, it is the opinion of this office that ethanol used solely as a fuel for motor vehicles is not an "intoxicating liquor" as defined in § 311.020, RSMo 1978. It is our further opinion that individuals who manufacture ethanol on their own land solely for the purpose of providing fuel for motor vehicles are not required to be licensed and regulated under Chapter 311, RSMo as long as the alcohol produced at the facility is denatured by some means.
Very truly yours,
John Ashcroft
Attorney General
http://www.moga.missouri.gov/statutes/C100-199/1420000015.HTM
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 142
Motor Fuel Tax
Section 142.015
August 28, 2007
Limited alcohol manufacturer, federal permit to be filed, where.
142.015. Every limited alcohol manufacturer shall file a copy of his federal permit for the manufacturer of alcohol with the director of the Missouri department of revenue.
(L. 1981 H.B. 462)
http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/faq/fuel.htm#q9
What is the Missouri tax rate on motor fuel?
Missouri’s fuel tax rate is 17 cents a gallon for all motor fuel, including gasoline, diesel, kerosene, gasohol, ethanol blended with gasoline, biodiesel (B100) blended with clear diesel fuel, etc. The tax does not apply to dyed diesel fuel or dyed kerosene, which is dyed in accordance with the IRS guidelines. Missouri also collects two fees on all sales of fuel. The fees collected are the agriculture inspection fee in the amount of 2.5 cents per 50 gallons (.0005 per gallon) and the transport load fee in the amount of $40.00 per 8,000 gallons (.005 per gallon). This makes the total tax and fees collected 17.55 cents per gallon.
Missouri If you do NOT sell your ethanol, there are no state-level permitting requirements. If you DO SELL your ethanol then the MO Dept of Agriculture needs to be contacted. They are the state agency responsible for weights and measures, and they are responsible for ensuring minimal fuel standards in the state of MO.
Mr. Weaver,
The Missouri Department of Agriculture fuel quality program is
responsible for insuring that all fuel sold in the state of Missouri
meets minimum quality standards.
The fuel quality program does not issue permits for ethanol production. Additionally, since you're not planning to offer this product for sale, we will not need to test it.
You may want to contact the Missouri Department of Natural Resources to insure you'll comply with any environmental regulations:
http://www.dnr.mo.gov/ethanol/
and the Missouri Department of Revenue to insure you're in compliance with tax regulations:
http://dor.mo.gov/tax/business/fuel/.
If you have questions feel free to contact me.
Regards,
Kevin Upschulte
Missouri Department of Agriculture
Fuel Quality Program
PO Box 630
Jefferson City, MO 65102
Voice: 573-751-2922
Fax: 573-751-8307
Webpage: www.mda.mo.gov
When he wrote the book it turns out he lived only a few miles from my house! heheh. I bought my book from Amazon.com:
"The Secrets of Building an Alcohol Producing Still" by Vincent R. Gingery.
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/lookinside/978-1-60322-064-4/album/index.html
I have not yet finished this booklet --maybe 100 to 120 pages?-- but it seems quite good so far. They also have a "Vol. 2" to the compendium which I have ordered.
Will report more later.
The web site, well, it sucks. Don't let that be your only judge.
I have thumbed through their booklet "Sunshine to Dollars" which also came with "Surviving the Blackout of 2003" which I either forgot about or didn't know they were bundled. In any event I found it interesting because the author is a ham radio operator, as am I, and we have both been CERT and ARES members. The "Sunshine" part looks interesting, if amateurish. Together they are only about 50 or 60 pages I'd guess. These are a little better quality than you'll get printing the PDFs for yourself, and that is their intent, so they achieved their stated goals.
So far I have found Knowledge Publications to be as advertised, and they have sent me what I ordered, and they did so quickly. As long as you don't expect a more expensive binding, and you understand these booklets are comprised of Internet guru materials I think you'll be satisfied.
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